Hero Discussion 11: Batrider

Hey guys!

I haven't been active on dotafire for a while because of an account issue that is now fixed (thanks Hades) - I'm glad to be back!

Also, I haven't played dota since the ti days (because I'm quite busy), so if I have stuff wrong, let me know!

Anyway, this is a discussion on Jin'zakk, Batrider.

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Batrider is a ranged intelligence hero who excels in kidnapping people and farming unbelievably fast blink daggers to do so. He is most often picked as an offlaner who can offer initiation tools around the 10-20 window.

Lore-wise, Batrider is a stupid child who gets kidnapped by bats but somehow enjoys it - then he kidnaps one of the bats... and now together they are kidnapping enemy heroes.

Kidnapper.

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As mentioned before, Batrider is an offlaner who excels in initiation. Another bright side about this is that Batrider can fall back into the jungle if the offlane is too hard for him.

As Batrider, you want to survive as long as possible in the offlane, grabbing cs here and there. If it gets too hard, you can fall back onto the jungle by stacking some camps, putting a few (3-5 ish) Sticky Napalm stacks on it, then flying over the camp with Firefly to kill it. Your first purchase should be boots, then Blink Dagger. Blink Dagger allows you to blink next to someone and THEN kidnap them. Otherwise they'll see you from miles away.

As part of Batrider's team, it is your duty to ensure Batrider can get enough money to buy a fast Blink Dagger. A Batrider without Blink Dagger is useless. Stack camps for him, buy wards for him, and buy a Smoke of Deceit for him as soon as he gets blink. Coordinate a smoke gank as soon as he gets Blink Dagger - the surprise factor is often enough to get a kill or two - and can be transitioned into a push.

If you're opposing Batrider, ward his jungle! Batrider is extremely reliant on his Blink Dagger and if you shut him down in lane AND take his stacks, he'll be really useless. Make sure you're keeping tabs on his items and gold - a few key bat timings include level 8, Blink Dagger purchase, Force Staff purchase, and other movement items. Expect a smoke gank when he gets a blink - be prepared.

That's enough of me for now, here are some questions to kickstart a discussion:

1. Why does Icefrog keep nerfing Batrider? I can't remember a single buff to him for so long.
2. Do you think it's ok to buy other movement items before Blink Dagger? Like Mask of Madness, Eul's Scepter of Divinity, etc.
3. How good is the classic s4 Batrider mid?
4. Is there any way to make Batrider less Firefly reliant? Because it appears that much of the stuff he does right now requires him to have Firefly up.
5. How do you deal with Batrider counters? ( Vengeful Spirit, Legion Commander, Abbadon, etc.)
   
6. What are some ways you can deal with Batrider when he's kidnapping your team?
7. What are your favourite counters to bat?

Happy discussing!

~So close, yet Sofa :D

Oi. I increased his flame break damage.

Lets just contend with that because this runt is OP simply because of his hero design.

Hey Sofa! Welcome back, and with such a nice post! :D

My view on some points you've mentioned (as usual not from a player perspective but from a viewer one): Batrider is such a strong (and unique indeed) hero that the nerfs were needed to make sure he wasn't first pick/ban material. His main advantage is the fact that you are getting a hero that is fairly independent in the offlane (can solo it easily and still win it), being strong there both in the early game and in the late game, where his Flaming Lasso will still be the changing factor in teamfights and in how you look at the map with that threat present. Just as an example, his latest nerf for the stopping TPs was seen as too much for some people, and yet right after in the Boston Majors he was picked 44 times, with a 59.09% winrate. Nice nerf kappa.

Ofc this is all in the pro scene: Bat is not a successful hero in pubs at all, I think, and the reason for that is the fact that Lasso is not a flashy "I'll kill you solo ability" but a purely set up one, besides the fact that pubs don't make use of the space created by him in the early game as much - having to commit one support to protect your core, etc., this doesn't mean anything in pubs mostly.

Good thing is, as Wulf pointed out in Discord, that nowadays you don't need to necessarily pick someone like Vengeful Spirit, Oracle or Legion Commander like you mentioned to counter Bat, since you can do it with Lotus Orb. Hopefully the nerfs were also still enough to make other heroes with the same functions as Bat as much of an option (like Beastmaster, who despite his huge winrate in the Boston Major was picked only 21 times, half of Bat).

As for the item build, there are two main ones in the pro scene right now: the usual Blink Dagger rush and what I like to call "the Moonmeandher build", which goes for Drum of Endurance and other stuff first. I think buying other stuff before the Blink is fine, if you don't need it that much that you are missing important timings. A must have nowadays seems to be Wind Lace too with the same purpose. Mask of Madness is just a bad joke :)

One thing I found interesting is starting to see some Bat's Aghanim's Scepters in the late game, working extraordinarily. Basically if you don't need something else and you really want the extra disable - ideally if you have some way to guarantee your enemies will stay close for you to get two at a time (think Dark Seer) - you can get it, makes you tankier too, which is something no other usual Bat item does (mostly I see Force Staff, Eul's Scepter of Divinity, Black King Bar, Lotus Orb, Scythe of Vyse).

Now I'll leave room to the actual Dota Firian Bat players to come forward with their experiences with the fiery Bat :)

It's all pro-scene balance stuff. Bat has many of the same problems as Io - he's very strong on co-ordinated teams, and kinda weak without them. If your team is ready to pounce on a well placed Flaming Lasso it's incredibly powerful...otherwise you're very reliant on being ahead enough to get solo kills.



As Chi-chi mentioned, Moon has a different build (still with movement based items, but more stats and utility). Again though, I'd reckon this is somewhat dependent on having a team who can setup for you, as well as good positioning and ganking skills.



Bat always used to be a mid, back in the days when mids were primarily gankers/snowballers rather than a carry. He's still competetive (even dominating) in the right matchups, but he can also suffer against many popular mids, hence he got shunted to the offlane/jungle.



It's such a strong skill. I'd say in many ways it's more crucial to his design than Flaming Lasso - it's his farming tool, escape, main damage etc. The only way to change that up would be to alter Sticky Napalm in some ways - that's the amplifier on all of his damage and the difference between success and failure is often how many stacks you get on.



Quite often you have to target them directly (maybe not Abba), or delay your initation until they've used whichever skill they have which messes up your Lasso. Team mates like Silencer can be very handy in this regard. Otherwise you have to see them somewhere else on the map before attempting pick offs.



See above really. Vision is obviously important, and calling 'OMG BAT HAS HASTE'. The usual suspects for resisting magic damage are useful - Omni, Rubick, Huskar etc. Old 98% magic resist Huskar used to be horrific for Bat. If you haven't got a specific counter hero, items like Linken's Sphere and Glimmer Cape can be pretty handy for getting you/an ally out of a mess. Blade Mail if you're a tanky hero with fast fingers.



Abaddon is just glorious. Go for a nice hot bath in his Firefly if you're feeling a bit low on health. Messing up his ganks with your heal and shield. Bat is very vulnerable to slows throughout the game, especially if they have a DoT to stop him blinking.

What you've done is actually the biggest Bat nerf I've seen in more than a year.

He can't cancel TP scrolls anymore, so he can't solo kill anyone anymore. People just TP out like on a bloodcyka. The only thing he can do now is hug his team all game.

Even I, who used to be the biggest advocate of solo queue Bat as a lane dominator and snowballer, am starting to think that Bat sucks in pubs now.

For me it's the same thing as what you did to Skywrath Mage and Mirana. You're turning all the snowballers into either boring supports or AFK farmers. As much as I like genociding creeps and pushing/ratting, I don't want the game to be about just that -_-

Please stop sucking the fun out of heroes Kyfrog. At least make Venomancer OP next patch for me please, this way you can redeem yourself :)

I thought you stopped playing?

I did. Haven't played a single game of Dota since then. I just want to see "Le balanced ebolamancer" memes on twich chat just for fun. Veno was historically my favorite support back when the hero was actually good. Nostalgia boys.

Veno is pretty cool to have, but if PL isn't getting a major buff next patch i'm rioting.

Poison Nova is lethal. That ought to do it.
I will think on it.
Veno is fun even now. Get an OOv max poison sting and your wards. Have fun?

They ought to be supports or farmers that get item. I hate the concept of oh I carry the game because I bring so much utility to the table that it's absurd. Just give me a blink or a force staff and i can Rekt scrubs left right and center. No. Just. No.

Bat rider is fun to play if you max napalm with flame break. Try it. Try being aggressive with 1 point in firefly and getting good amount of points in flame break. Tey being the idiot bat. Try being the bat that does not play by the rules. Try being the bat that forges new play style that is the need of the hour than whatever you have as your reservation. Try being the bat that makes whatever it has as his toolkit than what you had .

I can give you lower CD on ultimate and have a gank fest.
I give you too many interrupts with a big colossal one spell immunity piercing and you have colossal pain in the arse. Think of it. Not one hero in the game had two disables which are a part of a kit that one of them goes thru spell immunity. I am talking about hard disables or interruptions. Tell me one and i nerf that runt also.


Coming back. I know the meta has settled in and it's becoming a lot of bore and what is the word I am looking for? Melancholic ? No. It's starts with M.
****. I have too much on my mind right now. New stuffs to try.

Monotonous! Yeah.

Just bear with me. Bear.